College OTR: Prop 8 Pass and Prop 4 Rejection: Gay Marriage Ban and Abortion Accomodation in California

Prop 8 Pass and Prop 4 Rejection: Gay Marriage Ban and Abortion Accomodation in California

Posted by Tracy O'Neill 11/05/2008 4:08 PM
Category: Tags: california prop 4, prop 4 results, california gay marriage ban, california prop 8 poll results

Not to put a damper on the post post-racial victory, but California is really sucking the big one right now. Looks like Proposition 8, the ban on gay marriage in California, will pass today. It’s at 52% approval to 48% disapproval, and there aren’t all that many votes left to count. Prop 4 results are also almost all in, and Californians have chosen to reject the initiative, which would have required doctors to inform a minor’s parents before performing an abortion and mandated a 48-hour waiting period prior to the procedure. So gay people can’t get married, but minors can get abortions without needing to inform their (perhaps intolerant) parents, which is sort of a nice consolation prize.

The San Francisco Business Times reports:

Proposition 8, a ban on gay marriage in California, led in poll results early on Wednesday.

The divisive measure, bitterly contested by supporters and opponents in an expensive fight, led 52 percent to 48 percent with 95 percent of the state’s precincts having reported.

The measure was put on the ballot after a May 15 state Supreme Court decision that struck down California’s ban on same-sex marriage. The proposition was strongly supported in California’s conservative Central Valley, but no county in the Bay Area bar Solano favored it.

San Francisco in particular benefited from a tourism boom as gay and lesbian couples traveled to the city to be married. The Friday before Pride Week saw San Francisco’s gilded City Hall overun by couples lining up in cafeteria-style queues to get their documents completed before ceremonies took place all over the building. Many of them had been married in the past, some even twice before, and hoped “the third time’s the charm,” as one couple said in their vows.

Even if many Californians are morally opposed to gay marriage, they’ve got to realize the pragmatic benefits of permitting it. Tourism, cake sales, and tux rentals must be contributing fiscally to the state, and don’t we all want that? If UC Berkeley could cut down trees to make way for an athletic center, why can’t the state think as practically about gay marriage? Come on California, think about the cake sales!

+ 27 comments

Anonymous says,

ok. I'm really not sure where to start here. "What is that supposed to be, a consolation prize?" First off, these props are completely different. You imply that they are inherently similar, but really, I fail to see the connection that you assume so freely. Also, cake sales? I kinda sense you might be joking, but you dedicated a paragraph to it so I'll assume your moderately serious. What do you mean?? Tourism? How is gay marriage promoting tourism? Also, the economic parts of weddings will hapen anyways, this really won't stop people from celebrating their unions on their own accords. Posted 11/05/2008 4:44 PMReply

Anonymous says,

I still can't believe it passed in California! Posted 11/05/2008 5:03 PMReply

Anonymous says,

TELL THE MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO THAT WE THE PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT MAKE THE DECISION "WHATEVER HE LIKES OR NOT" Posted 11/05/2008 5:15 PMReply

Anonymous says,

i voted no on prop 8 and no on prop 4.

besides the overwhelming sadness realizing that there are still so many close minded people (especially being from the bay area, ca) myself) trying to put limits on other peoples right to love who they please... im so so thankful prop 4 didnt pass.

i fortunately grew up in a household where i could have told my parents if i ever needed an abortion, but there are many girls out there that dont have the luxury of having such great parents. if parental notification was the only legal option, and if young girls didnt have places like planned parent hood to go to, they would find some other way to get the abortion... either try it themselves ( the wire hanger method we've all heard of) and risk death, ive heard of a girl getting jumped (beat-up) in order to kill the baby, or going to a clinic that isnt safe or regulated. kids are gonna have sex anyways and prop 4 isnt going to stop them. Posted 11/05/2008 5:18 PMReply

Anonymous says,

I speak as a father of a gay son and a non-resident of California when I say I have had mixed feelings on this issue. For me it comes down to a basic right of two people in love being able to have equal rights in our country.I know it can be uncomfortable seeing gay people expressing their feelings where we can see it, but who's problem is that, theres or ours! The government does not have a right to dictate who can be married and who can't. Yes there are religious issues, but our government does not have the right to make moral judgements. I am a married man that loves my partner (who is a female) and I have the right to enter into a marriage with her. Our sons and daughters have the same rights to be recognized with a binding marriage. This right is not only be able to say "Look at me, we are married" it also gives our sons and daughters the ability to legally be responsible for their partener, recieve medical benifits and much more that we "straights" take for granted.
We have come along ways in shedding our prejiduces...lets not stop with our new president! Posted 11/05/2008 5:33 PMReply

Anonymous says,

Gay people can still get a civil unioned. They just can't change the definition of marriage.

Makes sense to me, a Californian. Posted 11/05/2008 6:44 PMReply

Anonymous says,

I CANNOT BELIEVE 4 DIDNT PASS? Posted 11/05/2008 7:52 PMReply

Anonymous says,

You honestly believe that there are clinics out there that would take the risk in this country and perform an abortion illegally? This isn't 1960 quit living in the past. The reality is that procedures such as these are so closely regulated that the reality that a girl would be able to get this doe is unlikely. Spin it differently and you'll see that as a parent its importent to know what your UNDERAGED daughter is going through. If they performed the procedure and something happened and this girl died...what then? Who is liable? The parents are left with nothing but the knowledge that people made decisions for them that led to their daughters death. These KIDS can't make decisions on their own of such magnitude and need help. WAY TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM THE PARENT!@ Anonymous: Posted 11/05/2008 8:18 PMReply

Anonymous says,

i cant believe 8 passed and 4 didnt. 4 was for parent notification of UNDERAGE GIRLS! ahhhh it just makes sense! Posted 11/05/2008 8:49 PMReply

Anonymous says,

So they can get a civil union that is only recognized in the state where it took place, they don't get the financial and legal benefits of marriage, but because of SOME PEOPLE'S religious beliefs (not everyone) all gay and lesbians have their rights taken away? The whole point of the First Amendment is freedom of religion, and I have yet to hear a legitimate reason for anyone opposing gay marriage that didn't have to do with religion. They are not teaching marriage in school, they never have and never will, and it was all a bullshit ploy to scare Californians into voting Yes, and it worked. Now we're doing the same kind of discriminating that we did with woman's suffrage and the Civil Rights Movement. Congratulations. I'm a Californian too and I used to take pride living in the most liberal state in the country, but apparently overevangelistic Jesus Freaks won their battle. God really appreciates when you take rights away from his people. Now the suicide right is going to rise when people cannot marry (it's already a statistic in states that have banned gay marriage). But I'm sure that's what the Yes on 8's wanted. Less "sinners" in the world, right? @ Anonymous: Posted 11/05/2008 8:53 PMReply

Anonymous says,

No one wants to see anyone's PDAs, and that goes for straight people too. Being gay doesn't mean you flaunt it all the time, just like people in a heterosexual relationship don't flaunt it all the time. @ Anonymous: Posted 11/05/2008 8:56 PMReply

Anonymous says,

To the comment about tourism, that was quoted from San Francisco Business Times. It makes perfect sense to me that gay and lesbians across the country would travel to get a MARRIAGE in a state where a) it is legal, and b) there are cities like San Francisco that are highly-populated gay communities. All I can say is Full Faith and Credit. If I was a lesbian, I would want my union to actually mean something to the government--which means that I would have to have a full-fledged marriage. @ Anonymous: Posted 11/05/2008 9:01 PMReply

Anonymous says,

^To commenter #8:
And you think the parents of these "kids" are always willing to help them? If the girl doesn't want to have a child but the parents don't believe in abortion, and force her to have it anyway---make decisions for her, about what's growing in HER body, and it is her body whether she's a minor or not---how is that fair to her?

What if the kid's a victim of rape and doesn't want to tell her parents, can't tell them, are you going to leave her without any options but to take matters into her own hands?

And the liability issue: getting rid of Prop 4 ensures that "people" don't make decisions regarding the daughter's well-being for which she alone will have to suffer. Parents will know that their child made her own decision to go through with the procedure, and that she had the option to approach an appropriate medical facility to have it done, which with Prop 4 she might never have had. That's what people like you don't realize.

Bottom line: if the child has a good enough relationship with her parents to sit down and talk to them about her decisions, she can do so on her own. Choose to do so, based on her own moral code, not something the law or government dictates. In the off-chance that her parents won't listen to her, or she feels she can't talk to them about it, she doesn't have to suffer for unfortunate circumstances. Posted 11/05/2008 9:04 PMReply

Anonymous says,

PEOPLE SHOULDNt CARE ABOUT GAy PEOPLEz liFE!!!!!! Posted 11/05/2008 10:28 PMReply

Anonymous says,

What I find disturbing about this country is that we will piss and moan about abortion being murder, but act as if gay marriage is just as bad as murder that we need to strip the rights of two people of the same sex to get 'married'. Does anyone else find it ridiculous that all this fuss is over the context of a word? If you ask me, the staggering divorce rates in this country alone proves heterosexuals blatent disregard to the sanctity of marriage not to mention it's definition. I resent that some people believe that the issue of tourism is enough to put a ban on gay marriage. I personally would have no desire to spend $500 on a round trip ticket to get married just to come home to a state where that union wouldn't be honored or recognized and there are more than enough gay communities in the midwest that would cost $5 in a train ticket that I'd be happy to visit at my leisure. Are these the most important issue in American culture? We spend 10 billion a month on a war that has accomplished absolutely nothing and where roughly 5000 people have died and we're going to concern ourselves with the issue of gay marriage? That is not only propsterous, but shameful as well. I did not vote this year because all politicians are liars! As much as they hate the idea of gay marriage they certainly have no problem with gay prostitutes! Why should I vote, serve, or take pride in my country when our government does nothing to support a way of life that I had no more choice in than my skin color? Is this not exactly what we did to black people over 50 years ago? Is this not exactly what the civil rights was meant to prevent? Well it's nice to see that our country has learned nothing from their mistakes and has, in fact, perpetuated those very mistakes. I fear for our culture when you take a relatively benign issue and turn into a political propaganda! For shame on that 58% of people who voted for this ban just because of their view of the definition. Maybe we should allow gays in the military, it certainly seems like a practical way to kill off an unfavorable type of person. We apparently have had no problem killing mothers, brothers, sisters and cousins who are presumably straight. Posted 11/05/2008 10:31 PMReply

Anonymous says,

whenever a minor is having a surgical or chemical procidure the parents should know what is going on to wach out for complications. That is what abortion is a medical procidure. If a parent does not know to watch out for this they will not be able to help their child if something does go wrong after this either surgical or chemical procidure. WHAT IS SO CONTROVERSIAL ABOUT THAT! Posted 11/05/2008 11:57 PMReply

Anonymous says,

Wow, some people say some ignorant things. First, I'd like to address the issue of being "closed minded." Close mindedness is a refusal to attempt to see the other side of an issue and to attach derogatory labels to those you don't understand (ie over-evangelistic Jesus freaks who want sinners dead). Second, homosexuality is already being taught in CA schools, sometimes as early as 1st-3rd grade, look it up. Third, our kids can't even have cough syrup w/o parental notification, why can they have medical procedures w/such devastating affects both to the girl and her unborn baby? Time to WAKE UP CA! Posted 11/06/2008 12:19 AMReply

Anonymous says,

No offence, but f uck those who are for prop 8, America's constitution is about equality, and freedom, and for the bastards who voted yes, thier either super religeous, unopenminded, or they're scared little pathetic excuses of people. Im a lil glad that prop 4 didnt pass though, its an upper for me and my gf. Posted 11/06/2008 12:21 AMReply

Anonymous says,

i cant believe that prop 4 did not pass, this really show how much parents out there care about their kids and their kids future. sssssaaaddd!! Posted 11/06/2008 12:32 AMReply

Anonymous says,

Wow, I think it's pretty ignorant to think that by allowing parents complete control over the issue of abortion that we're solving the issue. If your old enough to get yourself pregnant you should be old enough to make the decision to get an abortion. This isn't an issue of a third grader needing childrens tylenol cause they weren't correctly taught how to wash their hands after they piss. Am I the only person in the world who thinks that 95% of the worlds problems would be solved by minding our own damn business and by not meddling in the affairs of other people? Apparently, so. The world is overpopulated with enough christian idiots. Adopted children suffer the most from bi-polar disorders, depression, and other psychological ramifications as a result of the biological parents lapse in judgement. Then we are to trust the same kind of people and their judgment with an issue like this. I also find it ignorant to spit on our constitution and blatently ignore the seperation of church and state by using our personal convictions and spiritual values to impose laws on the people of this transparently dysfunctional nation. I find it even more so ignorant to believe that because some christian heterosexual teaches children about homosexuality that those kids are actually recieving a true education on the subject, especially since the media and society have done such a great job of trying to make hetero and homosexuality synonomous when they are not. I think people ought to find out more from people who have first-hand experience on both of these subjects instead of assuming some straight man has any idea what it means to be pregnant or faced with that kind of choice. Posted 11/06/2008 12:57 AMReply

Anonymous says,

Both Prop 8 passing and Prop 4 rejected are huge disappointments for me.
First off, I can't believe that even after the Court judged gay marriages a right and even after Gov. Schwarzenegger finally realized that banning gay marriages would be in opposition to the public's wishes that Prop 8 still passed. Although I must also say that, it is a bit ironic that increased black voter turnout to support Obama may have also boosted support for Prop 8 since a very high percentage of the black community is against gay marriages.

Now, for those who are using the abusive intolerant parents argument against parental notification of abortion, you are also being incredibly closed minded. You acknowledge that domestic problems exist yet you choose to completely overlook them. There are several institutions and programs already in place for abused teens to get help for those issues. This is why there were amendments to prop 4 unlike the previous 2 that would allow teens to deal with potentially dangerous parents.

Saying that abuse from parents is inevitable is just as retarded as saying teaching about gay marriages in schools is inevitable. Posted 11/06/2008 01:27 AMReply

Anonymous says,

" Although I must also say that, it is a bit ironic that increased black voter turnout to support Obama may have also boosted support for Prop 8 since a very high percentage of the black community is against gay marriages."

Agreed, and would add that it's also said that the black and Latino vote were what helped Prop 4 fail. So much some morals are good for some, but not others? Posted 11/06/2008 10:36 AMReply

Anonymous says,

i don't really care if gay people get mary or not. Posted 11/06/2008 1:44 PMReply

Anonymous says,

well prop 8 needed to pass first of all!! marriage is a sacred word the religion(s) they can have a differnt name and if it didnt pass that would be a law made to please peoples sexual desires!!!crazy Posted 11/06/2008 2:38 PMReply

Anonymous says,

Religion was not meant to have a place in politics. Especially when catholic priests are so thoroughly enjoying gay sex themselves. Sex and marriage are to different things. Anyone can have sex, but only straight people **** up marriage. Posted 11/06/2008 3:39 PMReply

Anonymous says,

I wonder what it would be like if traditonal marriage was not "normal" and gay marriage was! PASS PROP 8!

Proposition 4 is going to come back and kick us in the rear end! Posted 11/06/2008 5:08 PMReply

Anonymous says,

I must say I am ashamed to be a Californian right now. To all you ignorant religious bible thumping ****s out there.."Are you proud to be Bigots?" I don't want to believe in a god that is hateful, and discriminatory towards those he created in his image...yeah... he created us. Homosexuality is not a disease or a phase that people are going to get over, it's reality. From the beginning of time it has existed, and was accepted in many communities. Beside why don;t you actually try reading the whole bible once in a while, not just the parts that you agree with. I found this this article the other day that made me laugh, because it just shows you how narrow minded some people are. You hold onto those few "precious and righteous" morsels from the bible that you base your belief's on and ignore the rest of the book that doesn't apply to you..sorry doesn't work that way.

"Dear Califâ��orniaâ�� Conseâ��rvatiâ��ves and Prop 8 Suppoâ��rtersâ��,â��

Thankâ�� you for reminâ��ding us to obey God'â��s Law.

I have learnâ��ed a greatâ�� deal from you and underâ��standâ�� why you suppoâ��rt a constâ��itutiâ��onal amendâ��ment to ban same-â��sex marriâ��age.

â��

As you said,â�� "In the eyes of God, marriâ��age is betweâ��en a man a womanâ��.

â��

I try to shareâ�� your knowlâ��edge with as many peoplâ��e as I can.

When someoâ��ne triesâ�� to defenâ��d homosâ��exualâ�� relatâ��ionshâ��ips,â�� I simplâ��y reminâ��d them that Levitâ��icus 18:â��22 clearâ��ly stateâ��s it to be an abomiâ��natioâ��n.

â��

End of debatâ��e.

â��

I do need some advicâ��e from you, howevâ��er,â�� regarâ��ding some otherâ�� elemeâ��nts of God'â��s Law and how to folloâ��w them.

â��

1. Levitâ��icus 25:â��44 stateâ��s that I may posseâ��ss slaveâ��s,â�� both male and femalâ��e,â�� proviâ��ded they are purchâ��ased from neighâ��borinâ��g natioâ��ns.

â��

A frienâ��d of mine claimâ��s that this appliâ��es to Mexicâ��ans,â�� but not Canadâ��ians.

â��

Can you clariâ��fy?â�� Why can'â��t I own Canadâ��ians?â��

2. I wouldâ�� like to sell my daughâ��ter into slaveâ��ry,â�� as sanctâ��ionedâ�� in Exoduâ��s 21:â��7.

â��

In this day and age, what do you thinkâ�� wouldâ�� be a fair priceâ�� for her?

3. I know that I am allowâ��ed no contaâ��ct with a womanâ�� whileâ�� she is in her perioâ��d of menstâ��rual uncleâ��annesâ��s - Lev. 15:â��19-â��24.

â��

The problâ��em is how do I tell?â�� I have triedâ�� askinâ��g,â�� but most womenâ�� take offenâ��se.

â��

4. When I burn a bull on the altarâ�� as a sacriâ��fice,â�� it creatâ��es a pleasâ��ing odor for the Lord - Lev.â��1:â��9.

â��

The problâ��em is with my neighâ��bors.â�� They claimâ�� the odor is not pleasâ��ing to them.

â��

Shoulâ��d I smiteâ�� them?â��

5. I have a neighâ��bor who insisâ��ts on workiâ��ng on the Sabbaâ��th.â�� Exoduâ��s 35:2 clearâ��ly stateâ��s he shoulâ��d be put to deathâ��.

â��

Am I moralâ��ly obligâ��ated to kill him myselâ��f,â�� or shoulâ��d I ask the policâ��e to do it?

6. A frienâ��d of mine feelsâ�� that even thougâ��h eatinâ��g shellâ��fish is an abomiâ��natioâ��n - Lev. 11:â��10,â�� it is a lesseâ��r abomiâ��natioâ��n than homosâ��exualâ��ity.

â��

I don'â��t agreeâ��.

â��

Can you settlâ��e this?â�� Are thereâ�� 'â��degreâ��es'â�� of abomiâ��natioâ��n?â��

7. Lev. 21:â��20 stateâ��s that I may not approâ��ach the altarâ�� of God if I have a defecâ��t in my sightâ��.

â��

I have to admitâ�� that I wear readiâ��ng glassâ��es.

â��

Does my visioâ��n have to be 20/â��20,â�� or is thereâ�� some wigglâ��e-â��room here?â��

8. Most of my male frienâ��ds get theirâ�� hair trimmâ��ed,â�� incluâ��ding the hair arounâ��d theirâ�� templâ��es,â�� even thougâ��h this is expreâ��ssly forbiâ��dden by Lev. 19:â��27.

â��

How shoulâ��d they die?

9. I know from Lev.

11:â��6-â��8 that touchâ��ing the skin of a dead pig makesâ�� me uncleâ��an,â�� but may I stillâ�� play footbâ��all if I wear gloveâ��s?â��

10. My uncleâ�� has a farm.â�� He violaâ��tes Lev. 19:â��19 by plantâ��ing two diffeâ��rent cropsâ�� in the same fieldâ��,â�� as does his wife by weariâ��ng garmeâ��nts made of two diffeâ��rent kindsâ�� of threaâ��d (â��cottoâ��n/â��polyeâ��ster blendâ��)â��.

â��

He also tendsâ�� to curseâ�� and blaspâ��heme a lot.

Is it reallâ��y necesâ��sary that we go to all the troubâ��le of gettiâ��ng the wholeâ�� neighâ��borhoâ��od togetâ��her to stoneâ�� them?â�� Lev. 24:â��10-â��16.

â��

Couldâ��n'â��t we just burn them to deathâ�� at a privaâ��te familâ��y affaiâ��r,â�� like we do with peoplâ��e who
sleepâ�� with theirâ�� in-â��laws?â�� (â��Lev.

â��

20:â��14)â��

11. I wouldâ�� like to take on a seconâ��d wife and maybeâ�� a few concuâ��binesâ��,â�� if I can scrapâ��e enougâ��h moneyâ�� togetâ��her.

â��

Are you propoâ��sing an amendâ��ment to ban compuâ��lsoryâ�� monogâ��amy?â��

I know you have studiâ��ed theseâ�� thingâ��s extenâ��sivelâ��y and thus posseâ��ss consiâ��derabâ��le experâ��tise in such matteâ��rs,â�� so I am confiâ��dent you can help.

â��

Thankâ�� you againâ�� for reminâ��ding us that God'â��s word is eternâ��al and unchaâ��ngingâ��,â�� and that our constâ��itutiâ��on and laws oughtâ�� to enforâ��ce it.

Sinceâ��rely,â��

A Born again Agnostic" Posted 11/09/2008 3:10 PMReply